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************************
This is the transcript from the July 8, 1992 irc meeting of Smalltalk users.
Some of the clearly irrelevant ramblings have been edited out.
************************
<mikeoltz> Hi, my name is mike oltz. I just want to observe today... I will
+be starting to program in smalltalk soon.
<mjb> welcome
<mikeoltz> I work for the computing center at Cornell U.
<mjb> what ST will you be using?
<mikeoltz> Probably Digitalk because of $ issues.
<mjb> I hear that
<mjb> I'm a VWin user
<mjb> hi jco
<mikeoltz> so i'll keep quiet mostly.
<jco> Hello, mjb
<jco> Which ST do you use, mjb?
<mjb> VWin v2.0
<mjb> and you?
<mikeoltz> do you generally leave the topic blank?
*** muhr has joined channel #programSt
<jco> ParcPlace. Now in the process of switching over from 4.0 to 4.1 (what a
+pain!!!)
<muhr> Hello Smalltalkers!
<mjb> the topic is not blank on my server, let me double check it... brb,
+hi muhr
<mikeoltz> okay, it isn't blank now.
<muhr> First question: Do we have 10.00 PDT now?
<mikeoltz> 10:02:00
<muhr> Thank you
<mikeoltz> I set my watch from WWV in Colorado last night.
<mikeoltz> (National Bureau of Standards at 5.0, 10.0, 15.0 MHz)
<mjb> yep
*** Portnoy has joined channel #programST
<mjb> hopefully there will be someon here from europe who went to ECOOP and can
+give us a report
<muhr> It is 7 pm here in Berlin
<mikeoltz> what were topics of previous meetings? then the difference in this
+one will be clear to me (i wasn't here for them)
<mikeoltz> great
<mjb> they have been open subject meetings
<Portnoy> hello thomas, i read your name on some articles in
+comp.lang.smalltalk
<mjb> Adele Goldberg was here for the first meeting
<muhr> Is this channel in any moderated or organized?
<muhr> .. way ..
<mjb> can't say she'll be here today
<mikeoltz> wow.
<Portnoy> mjb: welcome martin, at least someone who will keep a log
<mjb> not exactly, I capture it and will upload the capture to the archives
<Portnoy> we are waiting for version 4.1 of objectworks to come...
<mikeoltz> here is a question: what is a good real-life analogy to the process
+of designing/developing a Smalltalk application?
*** muhr is now known as tomMuhr
<jco> Still waiting Portnoy? Already got it here.
<mikeoltz> (or is that answered in all of the textbooks)
<Portnoy> jco: for what platform?
<tomMuhr> Hello Portnoy
<jco> Portnoy: DECstation and SPARC
<tomMuhr> mikeoltz: having headache |-)
<jco> Portnoy: what platform are you waiting for?
<Portnoy> jco: decstation
<mikeoltz> tm: :-)
<Portnoy> perhaps it is 'shipped'
<Portnoy> :-)
<mikeoltz> but the ship is slow.
<mjb> :)
<mikeoltz> a rowboat...
<Portnoy> muhr: which version do you have?
<mjb> muhr: did you go to ECOOP
<tomMuhr> I feel very ashamed, but I'm using ST/V 286 & Windows
<mikeoltz> muhr: when would you not be ashamed?
<Portnoy> mjb: a college was at the ecoop
<mjb> ?
*** ninjam has joined channel #programst
<tomMuhr> Although I have ObjectWorks at my disposal. My image and me, we got
+very close friends over the last years.
*** ninjam has left channel #programST
<Portnoy> he said: nothing really new, all wanted to sell their things
<tomMuhr> Topic: Ideosyncrasy & the Smalltalk image
<mikeoltz> mjb: Portnoy meant 'colleague'
<mjb> ah
<Portnoy> sorry, english is still not my motherlanguage
<Portnoy> but one package i'm enthusiastic of today:
<Portnoy> CODE 4.1 from doug skuce of cananda for objectworks 4.0
<tomMuhr> Topic proposal: Why is there such low traffic in posting reusable
+code to publicly accessible servers or groups?
<Portnoy> a knowledge analysis and managment system
<Portnoy> does anyone know the CODE system or is interested?
<tomMuhr> Could you say something more about CODE 4.1?
<mikeoltz> because the number of expert Smalltalk programmers is < number of
+expert C programmers?
<Portnoy> CODE 4.1: Object-Oriented analysis of knowledge, graphic and outline
+user interface
<mikeoltz> tm: a beginner such as myself would not write good classes, so they
+would not be reusable let alone not embarrass the writer....
<Portnoy> CODE: something like a crossing of semantic nets, frame and expert
+systems
<tomMuhr> Another topic: What is a "good" class?
<Portnoy> CODE: as a smalltalk programmer you will get used to it very quick
<mikeoltz> tm: a class whose function and use is clear to other Smalltalkers,
+and one which is applicable flexibly.
<mikeoltz> tm: also usefulness helps.
<tomMuhr> can you name such classes in the original images?
<Portnoy> the sort of classes i shared and wanted to share were minor
+enhancements,
<jco> Would anyone be interested in an IRC app done in st80R4?
<Portnoy> know found in version 4.1
<Portnoy> (hopefully)
<mikeoltz> tm: you weren't here when I said i haven't done any Smalltalking
+yet, but would begin soon...
<tomMuhr> I see
<mikeoltz> so I should keep my mouth shut, really.
<tomMuhr> mikeoltz: Have you decided, what dialect you will be using?
<Portnoy> jco: beside the 'we can do that in smalltalk too' effect, what would
+be the advantage?
<mikeoltz> tm: our budget has decided: not Park Place. sigh.
<tomMuhr> mikeoltz: Dont be too worried: Digitalks ST/V Win isnt too bad
<jco> Portnoy: Graphical user interface, and the attendant ease of use.
<tomMuhr> mikeoltz: If you're university or the like, ST80 will be cheaper (if
+you do NOT intend to deliver runtime versions)
<Portnoy> jco: now you mention it, i get some ideas, how it could be improved
+by a gui.
*** mao has joined channel #programST
<mikeoltz> tm: Digitalk is $200 educational; we will be writing a networked
+application so
<mikeoltz> tm: we certainly will be distributing it all over the place.
<jco> Portnoy: it has three panes. Two at the top providing a channel list
+and a user list. The bottom is the message area...
<Portnoy> jco: sorry, again: since when did you get 4.1?
<mikeoltz> jco: I am using a DOS client written using Turbo Vision. One pane
+for input, one for system msgs, one per channel.
<jco> Portnoy: you click on the channel you want and then the top right pane
+shows the people on that channel. If you click on a user, then you're
+sending private messages to that user.
<tomMuhr> Our main application is still in ST/V 286 because of speed and
+tradition and accessibility of low level functions, which are all hidden in
+primitives in ST/V Win
<mikeoltz> jco: of course i can't run any other programs at the same time...
<Portnoy> jco: see my mouth dripping? yes, this would certainly be a great
+thing
<mikeoltz> jco: sounds very nice
<jco> Portnoy: we just got 4.1 a couple of weeks ago. Since we're in
+Sunnyvale (ParcPlace's new home!), I'm sure the shipping time to us is a lot
+less than for you!
<tomMuhr> jco: Can you do it now?
<mikeoltz> tm: we will need to hook up to lots of GUI primitives to do
+multimedia and networking stuff.
<Portnoy> mike: irc for DOS: is it free and where?
*** LS has joined channel #programST
<LS> HELLO evrybody !!!
<mjb> welcome LS
<mikeoltz> Portnoy: I don't remember where it is from. you are frerk at
+piccolo, yes? I can send you location later.
<tomMuhr> mikeoltz: ST/V Win seems to be the right tool. The new version 2.0
+claims to support MultiMedia
<Portnoy> mike: yes, thanks, frerk@informatik.uni-kl.de
<mao> 1
<LS> mjb ; what that stands for ?
<LS> hello .. ?
<Portnoy> ls: type /whois mjb
<mjb> not coffee... my initials
<mikeoltz> LS: do you program in Smalltalk?
<LS> no , not yet !
<tomMuhr> Anyone here programming in ST/V ... ?
<mjb> yes
<mjb> VWin 2.0
<Portnoy> jco: any experience on compatibility of 4.1 vs 4.0 yet?
<tomMuhr> mjb: You're lucky. We are waiting for more than a month. What we get
+is lots of redundant adverts
<LS> anyone care for a peace from my pizza ?
<mjb> tom: where are you located?
<tomMuhr> LS: what's on it?
<Portnoy> oops piece
<jco> Portnoy: I'm going through that now. Since this is my first upgrade
+experience, it is VERY painful.
<mikeoltz> anchovy :add pizza
<tomMuhr> Berlin (West....)
<LS> tM : lots of cheese , tabasco , oils and paparoni !!
<mjb> ah...
<mikeoltz> now make a class for that, LS
<tomMuhr> LS: Ok, I'll take a piece
<LS> sure , just jump over ...
<tomMuhr> LS: Where are you? You're not having a pizza for breakfeast?
<mikeoltz> he is in Israel
<mjb> one of my current interests is artificial life (AL)...
<mjb> and so I thought I'd whip up a version of Conways LIFE game in ST/VWin...
<mjb> it seems it would bve a great fit for ST...
<mjb> cells could be objects that respond to 'evaluate', 'turnOn', and
+'turnOff'...
<tomMuhr> LS: Where in Israel?
*** markb has joined channel #programst
<LS> in Haifa
<LS> \whois tomMuhr
<tomMuhr> LS: I have relatives in Tel Aviv
<jco> Portnoy: did you go through the 2.5 to 4.0 upgrade?
<mikeoltz> no, use the slash the other way, LS
<mikeoltz> mjb: are you implementing AL in Smalltalk?
<LS> tM ; yea ? i'm studin` in T.A. university !
<mikeoltz> ah.
<Portnoy> jco: thank god, no. but some project members two years ago did
<mjb> yes VWin...
<mjb> it works fine upto a grid size of 12x12...
<Portnoy> jco: i think it was a much bigger jump from 2.5 to 4.0
<mikeoltz> markb: hi! do you program in Smalltalk?
<jco> Portnoy: same situation here. Another group member here did the 2.5 to
+4.0. This time I get to do the 4.0 to 4.1. This has really got to be
+Smalltalk's achille's heel!
<markb> Hi, no, I don't....
<mjb> with larger sizes the program starts to load then backsout, gracefully,
+but without any system msg's...
<tomMuhr> LS: I visited TA Uni this March
<markb> I don't even know what smalltalk is.
<mikeoltz> It is an object-oriented programming language.
<markb> I see.
<mikeoltz> As far as object-oriented goes, it makes C++ look sick.
<LS> tM: what do you think about it ?
<mjb> markb Smalltalk is an object oriented programming language
*** Calvino has joined channel #programST
<markb> Closest I've ever come to oop is Visual Basic...
<mjb> hi Calvino
<Calvino> Hi all.
<mjb> did you see my msg's to you on irc the other night?
<markb> what platforms does it run on? PC?
<tomMuhr> How long will this meeting last? Is there a kind of time-out?
<Portnoy> jco: i thought they would make a bigger jump:
<markb> who were you addressing, mjb?
<Portnoy> mapping smalltalk processes to threads,
<mikeoltz> DOS 286's, Windows, OS/2, X Windows...
<LS> tM : are you from Berlin ?
> (continuing... LIFE) currently Digitalk is looking at my code to see why
+larger gridsizes are not being accomodated...
<tomMuhr> LS: Yes
<Portnoy> but this would mean losing the mac and DOS platforms
<mikeoltz> <this is getting to be like a cafeteria>
<LS> well baybay !!
*** markb has left channel #programST
<mjb> Conway's original game was at 128x128, as I recall, a long way to go.
<LS> beb
*** Signoff: LS (Leaving)
<Portnoy> ALL: does anyone know of a possibility to display graphic objects
+as postscript instead of displaying them on a graphic context?
<mjb> no definite end to the meeting Tom
<mikeoltz> it just kind of dribbles off...
<mikeoltz> the Esperanto meetings on Tuesdays are the same way.
<mjb> (I used to attend Sunday night Amiga confs that would have 80-100
+people online, whew!)
<Portnoy> jco: maspar = massive parallel?
<jco> Portnoy: yup, you got it.
<mikeoltz> re Portnoy's question: is this an inherent capability in any of the
+GUIs on which Smalltalk is available?
<Portnoy> jco: maspar in smalltalk?
<Portnoy> mike: could be, but someone has to do the work,
<mao> What is the latest version for Smalltalk v/PM and Smalltalk V/WIN
<Portnoy> mike: just write new displayOn: methods that output postscript
<jco> Portnoy: nope. We're not doing any parallel programming in smalltalk
+(other than one experiment). The programming environment for our machine is
+done with smalltalk.
<mikeoltz> win 2.0 PM 1.4
<mikeoltz> yes?
<mjb> mao: VWin is at version 2.0
<Portnoy> jco: even with MVC, or do you find it easier then say MOTIF Widgets?
<mao> Does PM 1.4 take advantage of OS/2 2.0?
*** widmann has joined channel #programST
<jco> Portnoy: I didn't understand your question.
<mikeoltz> well, it runs under such at least.
*** widmann is now known as Norbert
<mikeoltz> hello, Norbert, do you program in Smalltalk?
<Norbert> Hello. Yes, I work with Smalltalk V Windows
<jco> Geez. All these ST/V people. Who other than Portnoy and myself work
+with ParcPlace Objectworks/Smalltalk?
<Portnoy> jco: when i want a hardcopy of a huge graph,
<Portnoy> jco: i don't want to hardcopy the x-window but...
<Norbert> I guess Parcplace is simply too expensive
<mikeoltz> <severe silence>
<Calvino> jco: Well, I work with it.
<tomMuhr> I'll be coming back later.
<mikeoltz> not for everybody, Norbert, or they wouldn't be in business!
<mao> I work with ParcPlace Smalltalk-80
<Portnoy> jco: display it on a postscript context instead of a graphics
+context
<mjb> the lasttime there was a dearth of VWin users, glad to see 'em :)
<mao> who
<tomMuhr> If I find a free modem port......
<Norbert> BTW, I have heard that Parcplace is plann
<mikeoltz> gxis la revido ... i mean, see you later, tm
<Calvino> I'm using it right now.
*** Signoff: tomMuhr (Leaving)
<Norbert> OOPS, I meant that Parcplace is not taking any runtime Licenses any
+more
<mikeoltz> huh?
<mikeoltz> do you mean runtime is free now?
<Portnoy> if it get's too confusing, we could split the cahnnels to ST/V and
+ST80
<Calvino> be right back
<Norbert> It's only a rumor I heard. Anything true about it ?
*** Signoff: Calvino (Calvino)
*** Baz has joined channel #programST
<mikeoltz> hello, Baz, do you program in Smalltalk?
<jco> Portnoy: Hmmm, I'll have to check to see what we do. Our program
+prints out stuff in postscript. Not sure how it does it, or even if its the
+smalltalk code thats doing it.
*** Calvino has joined channel #programST
<Calvino> whew.
<Portnoy> rehhi calvino
<Baz> hello, Yes - I do - a parcplace derivative called BrouHaHa.
<jco> Calvino: have you upgraded to 4.1?
<mikeoltz> wow, it must be the middle of the night for you, Baz...
<Calvino> jco: Yes, I have.
<Baz> mikie> no - its 18:53 for me in England (just borrowing a machine in
+korea!)
<jco> Calvino: how'd it go? I'm in the process of trying to get our app to
+work under 4.1. Painful.
<mao> I found MVC in Smalltalk-80 very impressive. But ST V doesn't support
+it.
<Calvino> jco: Well, the changes in Paragraph Editor broke my Emacs bindings,
+but once I fixed those, I hardly noticed anything else :)
<Calvino> mao: How can you have a Smalltalk without MVC?
<Calvino> jco: What are you doing that got broken?
*** Signoff: mao (mao)
<mikeoltz> ?
*** Signoff: Baz (h.ece.uiuc.edu close.cs.columbia.edu)
*** Signoff: Norbert (h.ece.uiuc.edu close.cs.columbia.edu)
*** Signoff: Portnoy (h.ece.uiuc.edu close.cs.columbia.edu)
<Calvino> net split
<mikeoltz> ARRGH!!!! NET SPLIT!!! BAD ONE!!!
<jco> Calvino: well, I haven't gotten real far yet, but we have this change
+sorter that helps manage change sets. It mucks with things like
+MethodDictionary>whichSelectorsReferTo: and other fairly low-level stuff
<mjb> net split?
<mikeoltz> yes, somewhere a link in the net IRC is using went down.
<mjb> ah
<mikeoltz> and the people on the other side all went bye-bye
<Calvino> jco: That does sound pretty painful.
*** Portnoy has joined channel #programST
*** Norbert has joined channel #programST
*** Baz has joined channel #programST
<mikeoltz> at least as far as we can see. maybe to them it looks like we all
+went away.
<mikeoltz> welcome back.
<mjb> welcome back guys
<Baz> Portnoy: Has anyone written a nice document giving advice on the
+process?
<jco> Calvino: FileDirectory doesn't exist any more. That one bit me pretty
+bad.
<Baz> (wow - what happened to them??)|
<mikeoltz> That was called a 'net split'.
<Calvino> jco: The first Smalltalk I used was GNU Smalltalk, for learning
+general things. But I really didn't start programming real things until 4.1.
<mikeoltz> Somewhere two IRC servers stopped talking to each other for a
+minute.
<Portnoy> anyone hurt?
<mikeoltz> -)
<jco> Calvino: huh? do you really mean 4.1???
<Baz> nice to have you back!
<Calvino> jco: Yep. 4.1 before it was released.
<mjb> funny, we thought you had left... were there 2 splits?
<mikeoltz> Calvino: so who do you know?
<Baz> Portnoy: My app relies *heavily* on BitBlt!!
<mikeoltz> no, on each side of the split, it looks like everyone on the other
+side quit.
<Portnoy> jco: 4.1: from parcplace usa to heeg germany to university
+kaiserslautern to my working group to me (uff)
<mjb> thanx
<Calvino> mikeoltz: I know everyone!
<jco> Calvino: Ahh, I see. We had the 4.1 beta, but we only used it for the
+VM, 'cause the 4.0 VM wouldn't work on one of the models of the decstation
+5000 that we have here.
<Calvino> mikeoltz: at ParcPlace, that is.
*** Signoff: Norbert (noc.belwue.de TU-Muenchen.DE)
<Portnoy> baz: what is your app?
<Portnoy> jco: 5000/240!
<jco> Portnoy: yup!
<Calvino> jco: It works now?
<jco> Calvino: the 4.1 VM works fine.
<Portnoy> i think our distributor gets a message real soon!
<Baz> Portnoy: Its a hypertext structured editor. I didn't like paragraph
+editor etc. and reimplemented, onlythis time for structureddocuments
*** Norbert has joined channel #programST
<Calvino> jco: Cool. Anyway, yeah. How I'm delving into low-level stuff for
+an MH interface, NNTP reader, etc. (so I can stop using Emacs..:). So I'll
+get to be one of the lucky ones if the VI changes significantly.
<Portnoy> baz: very interesting, we are working on hypertext too
<Calvino> ^How^Now
<Norbert> Helllo again
<mikeoltz> Baz: is this a commerical product?
<mikeoltz> likewise ht.
<Norbert> I just don't get it fully with irc
<mikeoltz> commercial.
<mjb> hello?
<mikeoltz> long pauses tend to precede a split.
<Baz> Portnoy: You couldn't offer me a job could you ? :-)
<Baz> mikeoltz: no - its a university research project.
<Portnoy> baz: structured means outline or hyperchaos or better?
<Portnoy> baz: what your e-mail?
<jco> Calvino: Dealing with image upgrades has got to be the worst part of
+programming in smalltalk.
<Baz> Portnoy: bp@cs.hull.ac.uk
<Baz> Portnoy: structured means our nodes have structure - paragraphs contain
+words etc.
<Portnoy> baz: thanks, our ht is a university research tool too
<mikeoltz> oh, like SGML.
<Baz> Portnoy: What do you mean by hyperchaos?
<Portnoy> baz: are the links typed or labeled, do you have composite nodes,
+what is the granularity of the nodes?
<Calvino> jco: Yeah. It's one of my pet peeves. There must be ways of reducing
+the impact.
<jco> Calvino: smalltalk needs some of the features of Dylan that deal with
+this.
<mikeoltz> the Computer Crash Dummies suggest you wear a seatbelt and shoulder
+harness...
<mikeoltz> i never heard of Dylan until the latest PC Week.
<Calvino> jco: There are still people who haven't recovered from 2.5->4.0, for
+crying out loud!
<mikeoltz> i must live on the wrong coast or something.
<Portnoy> mike: what the * is Dylan?
<mikeoltz> it's something from Apple for supposedly easy programming. that's
+all i know.
<mikeoltz> not compatible with anything else, natch.
<Portnoy> mike: must be something funny about it?
<jco> Portnoy: Dylan is an object-oriented dynamic language being developed
+by Apple. It's syntax is Lisp-ish, but it is completely object-oriented.
<Baz> Portnoy: The nodes are composite - yeah. The nodes can be *anything*,
+i(sorry this machine is *really* slow)
<Calvino> Well, Dylan is used for the operating system. It's not at all clear
+one will be able *program* the machines, per se.
<Portnoy> oh i got it, DYnamic LANguage
<mikeoltz> Hmm... Apple and object-oriented, and Lisp. I've got it:
+Apple-flavored Fruit LOOPS!
<Portnoy> yet another CLOS
<jco> Calvino: I'm just glad I didn't have to do the 2.5 to 4.0 conversion!!!
<Norbert> {/msg Baz Going over Koreas isn't the easiest Way :-)
<jco> Portnoy: NO! not another CLOS.
<Norbert> Sorry, using a 2400 Modem and a bad phone line :-(
<Portnoy> baz: we have an enhancement that lets every smalltalk object look
+like a hypernode
<Baz> Portnoy: send me a paper!!
<mikeoltz> me too...drool...slobber...
<Portnoy> baz: it's not as useful as it sounds,
<Portnoy> baz: because the only editor for it is the system-browser of
+smalltalk
<Baz> Portnoy: :-) Why did you do it?
<Portnoy> baz: well i didn't do it and this was my personal opinion
<Portnoy> baz: but i have to work with it anyway
<Calvino> jco: How does Dylan cope with class change? DOes it have multiple
+namespaces (or the equivalent)?
<Baz> Portnoy: I know exactly how you feel!!
<Portnoy> baz: the problem is, how can i save the structure other than in an
+image
<jco> Calvino: Dylan has 'modules' to define multiple namespaces.
<Calvino> jco: Aha.
<mikeoltz> Dylan: "The answer, my friend, is Newton in your hand...the answer
+is Newton in your hand."
<mjb> :)
<Baz> Portnoy re: save the structure: We are using a object oriented
+distributed database developed by another iuniveristy to store our documents.
<Portnoy> baz: is it multi-user?
<Portnoy> baz: do you know the ISLE project, it has to be near you
<Norbert> Portnoy: Program Development with more than 1 Developer is quite
+difficult in ST
<Baz> Portnoy: Not at a fine-grained level. The level of locking will
+probably be "the document", anything more ambitious and we'll run out of
+time.
<Baz> Portnoy: ISLE? no....
<Portnoy> does anyone use application organizer? (i do not)
<Norbert> Baz: Is the OODBMS written completely in ST?
<Portnoy> baz: we have an object-server, a smalltalk image that stores
+objects for other images
<mikeoltz> make that OODDBMS
<Portnoy> baz: the problem is the namespace
<mikeoltz> (the "distributed" part is important)
<Baz> mikeoltz & Norbert: Yes the OODDBMS is completely written in Smalltalk,
+apart from a few VM changes.
<Norbert> mike: Why?
<Portnoy> baz: you need new ids for every distributed object
*** Signoff: jco (Leaving)
<Baz> Norbert: its a distributed dbms
<Portnoy> and how do you get the object back, if you don't know the id?
<Norbert> mike: Has it some kind of distributed Servers or is only the data
+distributed?
<Baz> Portnoy: Our colleqgues have to worry about all that stuff!
<mikeoltz> Norbert: baz is the chap to ask.
<Portnoy> baz: vm changes?
<mikeoltz> (chap?)
<Baz> Portnoy: oh yeah - we use *nmaes* for our documents that are held in a
+global object table (or something like that!)
<Baz> Portnoy: I dunno about the VM changes. They are the BrouHaHa VM, so use
+in PP 4.1 seems remote :-(
<Portnoy> baz: is the oodbms running in a different image?
<Baz> mike> yup - I'm a chap!!
<Baz> Portnoy: The ooDdbms runs all over the net!
<Baz> Calvino: BrouHaHa was developed at Queen Mary College in the University
+of London as a portable smalltalk. See the paper in OOPSLA '87
<Portnoy> baz: smalltalk is great, but how comes that i want it distributed,
+persistent, multiple inheritance, typed?
<Norbert> Portnoy: You want it TYPED!! (Blasphemy)
<Baz> Portnoy: yeah - we always want the next model!
*** aknight has joined channel #programST
<mikeoltz> welcome, folks, do you program in Smalltalk?
<mikeoltz> oh, mjb is back...didn't recognize you...
<Portnoy> just call me port
<mikeoltz> this is called using two processes. you have multiple
+personalities...
<mikeoltz> i wondered when you'd Bebak...
> ok mark, i changed
<Norbert> Bye, phone line is too bad.
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<Portnoy> baz: say why going over korea, no official access?
<Baz> Portnoy: The sysman couldn't get an irc client to compile on this grungy
+Amdahl. *AT&T UNIX)
<aknight> I guess I can pick up the transcript from the archive site.
<mikeoltz> Portnoy had just said that he wanted Smalltalk to be distributed,
+persistent, multiple inheritance and typed.
<Baz> aknight: is that possible?!?!
<mikeoltz> and some reacted to the Knight part.
<Calvino> There are about 10 great arguments in there...
<Portnoy> aknight: some topics: v4.1/4.0/2.5, Hypertext in ST80, ST/V (?),
+lack of goodies
<mikeoltz> i mean, TYPED part. fui.
<Calvino> Everything sounds okay except the typed bit...
<Calvino> And I'm not convinced of the wortthiness of multiple inheritance.
<Portnoy> perhaps i have to explain:
<Portnoy> smalltalk is for programming,
<Calvino> Or at least a sensible way of implementing it.
<Portnoy> what i sometimes want is a representation of the real world only
<Portnoy> and what is it other than typed if i write:
<Portnoy> anObject isKindOf: aClass ifTrue: [] ifFalse: []
<Portnoy> multiple inheritance is easy to get in smalltalk:
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<Portnoy> change some variables and methods in the metaclass
<Portnoy> the point is what to do when conflicts appear?
<mikeoltz> merge?
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<mikeoltz> which is difficult, non?
<Portnoy> two methods with the same name are inherited, which whould i take?
<Portnoy> i ask the user :-)
<Portnoy> oops would or should = whould
<mikeoltz> what if the user doesn't speak Smalltalk and hasn't a clue.
<Portnoy> mike: asking the user was a joke, certainly i can't
<mikeoltz> oh.
<Portnoy> i mean with polymorphism the conflict appears in runtime, no
+progammer around, only the user
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<Cyber> hya folx
<mikeoltz> welcome cyber, do you program in Smalltalk? right now we are
+discussing
<Portnoy> you have to specify preferences or default values
<mikeoltz> how conflicts in multiple inheritance might be resolved.
<Cyber> mike: well, i want to start programming in smalltalk
<mikeoltz> (or at least Portnoy is)
<Portnoy> typed: if smalltalk is good as a model for the problem,
<Cyber> mike: just yesterday i compiled gnu-smalltalk 1.1
<Calvino> Portnoy: First I'd want t o be convinced that multiple inheritance
+is necessary.
<Cyber> mike: well, thats all in the moment :-)
<Portnoy> calvino: every time you do 'cut-and-paste' programming, you should
+consider multiple inheritance as the easier solution
<mikeoltz> yeah, if it does the same thing, maybe it should BE the same thing.
<Portnoy> see st80/ow4:
<Calvino> Portnoy: eh?
<Portnoy> calv: parcplace smalltalk-80 objectworks 4.0
<Baz> Portnoy: I think sharing the actuall source code could be a neat way of
+doing 'cut-and-paste' programming
<Cyber> okey folx, don't want to distrub u!
<Portnoy> a host window is no view but behaves like one
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<Portnoy> look at the wrappers:
<Portnoy> for every combination of behaviour a new class
<Calvino> Portnoy: I don;t understand what you mean by "multiple inheritance
+being the easiest solution for cut-and-paste programming".
<Portnoy> and if they are the same class,
<Portnoy> the have heavy if then statements in there
<Portnoy> if the layout is nil, a wrapper has absolute coordinates
<Portnoy> if the layout isn't nil it has relative coordinates
<Portnoy> i would like to inherite from absolut/relative wrapper AND
+bordered/unbordered wrapper AND wrapper with scrollbars or not
<Portnoy> in an exellent article
<Portnoy> on smalltalk there was said, the collection hierarchy is excellent
<Portnoy> but the View hierarchy is awful regarding OOP
<Portnoy> oops, it's late, all are silent, anybody out there?
*mikeoltz* no but somebody is
<mikeoltz> yo
<mjb> still capturing
<aknight> I believe the view hierarchy is much improved in release 4.0. It was
+a mess.
<Baz> yes!
<Portnoy> so the article meant 2.5 ?
<Baz> aknight: I'm still using 2.3 !
<Calvino> brb
<aknight> I ddidn't read the article, how should I know.
<Portnoy> more pratical: I wanted a pluggable editor in 4.0, but without the
+possiblity to evaluate smalltalk expressions
<Baz> Calvino: Have you got an irc client written in ST?
<Calvino> Baz: Not quite finished.
<Calvino> brb
*mikeoltz* where he said that the four pieces don't fit together well...
<Calvino> back
<Baz> What is the job market for Smalltalk programmers in your respective
+countries like?
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<Portnoy> in germany there was a (single) advertisment for a job, written in
+smalltalk :-)
<Portnoy> quite funny
<tomMuhr> Did I miss something of essence within the last 90 minutes?
<mikeoltz> well, even if the Smalltalk market itself doesn't grow very fast,
+Smalltalkers are better prepared to jump sideways.
<Portnoy> but next time the ad looked normal
<Baz> Portnoy: I'd have liked to have seen that!
<Baz> hi tom. you can read about it later...
<mikeoltz> oop is sprouting up all over the place, in more solid incarnations
+than C++
<Baz> aknight: I'm still using 2.3 !
<aknight> I ddidn't read the article, how should I know.
<Baz> beau> I use xterm loggion, if thats what you mean.
<Portnoy> more pratical: I wanted a pluggable editor in 4.0, but without the pos
siblity to evaluate smalltalk expressions
<Baz> Calvino: Have you got an irc client written in ST?
<Calvino> Baz: Not quite finished.
<Baz> What is the job market for Smalltalk programmers in your respective countr
ies like?
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<Portnoy> in germany there was a (single) advertisment for a job, written in sma
lltalk :-)
<Portnoy> quite funny
<tomMuhr> Did I miss something of essence within the last 90 minutes?
<mikeoltz> well, even if the Smalltalk market itself doesn't grow very fast, Sma
lltalkers are better prepared to jump sideways.
<Portnoy> but next time the ad looked normal
<Baz> Portnoy: I'd have liked to have seen that!
<Baz> hi tom. you can read about it later...
<mikeoltz> oop is sprouting up all over the place, in more solid incarnations th
an C++
<tomMuhr> Baz: How can I read about it??
<Baz> mikeoltz: do you reggard C++ as sideways???!
<mikeoltz> no, i said 'more solid than'
<Portnoy> i always say: if i hadn't programmed in smalltalk, i would write only
better c in c++
<Baz> tomMuhr: beau will uploda the conversation to the illinois archive
<Portnoy> but til today i don't have to write in c++
<Baz> mike: sorry - time lag (my brain , partkly)
<tomMuhr> Baz: Can you give a detailed reference to "illinois archive"?
<Baz> C++ is frighteningly popular...
<Portnoy> speedy.cs.uiuc.edu
<Portnoy> baz: c++ is more popular, but even in commercial apps smalltalk is ast
onishing widely used
<Baz> 128.174.241.10 is the Illinois Archive
<tomMuhr> Thank u, Baz
<Portnoy> right
<Baz> Portnoy: That surprises me! Is it more popular in germny than elsewherr?
<Portnoy> oh i read it in an american magazine 'object world' or something like
that
<mikeoltz> perhaps they were just trying to sell subscriptions...
<tomMuhr> I have been asked by IBM-Hamburg to train them using ST/V PM (which I
have only a faint idea of....)
<mikeoltz> Thomas Watson Labs of IBM is definitely doing work in Smalltalk (that
is public knowledge, not a secret)
<tomMuhr> I think it will often be a benefit to have programs run early, not fas
t
<mikeoltz> i.e. Smalltalk gives a quicker development cycle.
<Portnoy> i would like smalltalk been normed, so that there could come up more s
malltalks
<mikeoltz> usually a great many incompatible products come out before enough peo
ple are tearing their hairs out to set up a standards committ
<mikeoltz> committee
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<mikeoltz> welcome, smith.
<mikeoltz> do you program in Smalltalk?
<smith> Thanks
<Portnoy> muhr: you know of the manchester archive?
<smith> I program ST80
<tomMuhr> Smalltalk really had its time to develop standards (from 1972, if I re
call correctly)
<smith> yes
<tomMuhr> Portnoy: yes
<mikeoltz> but it was used internally in only one company for half of that time.
<mikeoltz> where it kept mutating.
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<tomMuhr> So do we...
<Portnoy> til 1980, so it was named st80
<Baz> How do you guys manage teams of ST programmers? It's a headache if you do
it ad hoc --- speaking from experience.
<tomMuhr> Is the IRC ready now?-)
<mikeoltz> how many of us have teams?
<Calvino> I work in a team...
<mikeoltz> muhr: for what?
<Portnoy> baz: yes indeed, i have to manage it
<mikeoltz> unfortunately, i are a team.
<Baz> I work in a team of 3.
<tomMuhr> Nobody will ever allow you to touch his/her image, it's like something
that has become a part of your self!-)
<Portnoy> baz: team: with students work >10 programmers concurrent?
<Baz> When and how do you share code?
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<Portnoy> baz: all file-out their code and then i'll be ask every month how far
i have integrated it :-(
<Baz> tom> there was a smalltalk pin in there somewhere!
<Baz> (pin=pun!)
<Portnoy> ever member has the one and only installation procedure
<Baz> Portnoy: that sounds like a recipe for ulcers
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<Portnoy> so i decided to work first on an installation tool
<Portnoy> like 'make' but with the ui of the system-launcher
<tomMuhr> does it work?
<Portnoy> it manages the prerequisite relations
<Baz> <Portnoy> like 'make' but with the ui of the system-launcher
<Portnoy> hard coded in methods for each component
<Portnoy> it's a progress for shure
<Baz> Portnoy: Have you published this?
<Portnoy> til yet, even the members are waiting for it
<Portnoy> every component has a menu entry,
<Baz> Portnoy: I'm not sure that I grasp what yiou have done without studying it
a bit more closely.
<Portnoy> and if it isn't installed, it asks you and installs it
<Portnoy> it keeps a record of already filed-in sources files
<mikeoltz> must go, have other tasks to do. "I'll be beck."
<Portnoy> i think the pain really increases, if more than one works on the some
classes
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<Portnoy> over here it is evening, so open end
<Calvino> Portnoy: you find the conflict information the system provides inadequ
ate?
<tomMuhr> Sorry, I am curious, could you all name your location?
<Portnoy> calv: it does it only once, unless you have advanced objectkit with cl
ass report
<Calvino> I'm in Sunnyvale, CA.
<Calvino> Portnoy: Right. But APOK is too expensive?
<Baz> I'm In Hull, England. (The University)
<Portnoy> we all use campus licences, so it want hurt ,but otherwise?
<Portnoy> ow4 seems to be luxury
<tomMuhr> Berlin
<Portnoy> Kaiserslautern, Germany too
<Calvino> Portnoy: Yeah. It's a shame that this drives people to duplicate effor
t, expensively.
<Calvino> brb
<Portnoy> i've programmed cursor keys, like many others, now it's in 4.1 at last
<Portnoy> it would be better to repeat this meeting weekly and keep it short to
my opinion
<Baz> Portnoy: I second that!
<Portnoy> it's good for seeking people with the same problem,
<Portnoy> but bad for finding the solution online
<Portnoy> so i try mail after this, (ok baz?)
<tomMuhr> Who decides this? We could just as well make it a regular meeting now
<Baz> Portnoy: yeah - let keep in touch. Have you got an overview of your system
?
<Portnoy> is wednesday ok?
<tomMuhr> yes
<Baz> yes
<Portnoy> i have a BIG Overview, a moment
<Calvino> back
<Portnoy> 6 MByte Postscript (former DVI from TeX)
<Baz> me too. Needs cutting donw.
<Baz> I cab handle TeX
<Portnoy> i'm afraid there are included postscript pictures
<Baz> HAVE YOU GOT A LOCAL ANOIN-FTP damn caps key!
<Portnoy> i'm sending a test mail
<Portnoy> and everyone can reach me on irc (almost any time)
<Baz> Portnoy: Not 6Mb!!!!
<Portnoy> no, just a test to reach you
<Baz> Are we meeting next week?
<Portnoy> baz: ftp: yes and no, it's to public for that
<Baz> Portnoy> you could ftp it to a site in London in my directory (anonymous)
and I could take it off asap.
<Calvino> Portnoy, Baz: You might try getting Manchester/Illinois to archive it.
<Calvino> It seems interesting enough.
<Portnoy> one component (not the best and not the worst) is already in illinois:
CUIBE (former Mode), the UI Builder
<Baz> I assume its in English?!
<Portnoy> the overview is in english
<Baz> I can see the filenames of that package in my emacs window right now!
<Portnoy> the components are documented in german, but we have to work on that a
nyway
<Portnoy> our project is NESTOR which stands for networked stations for tutoring
<Portnoy> so our goal is multimedia/hypermedia courseware authoring
<Baz> see you guys next week? Who advertised this on USENT>
<Baz> Ill look
<Baz> bye
<Portnoy> ok
<Portnoy> ciao
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<end>
?